Oh sure… in some cases anthropologists will try to define based on specific technologies or strategies… but that tends to muddy rather than clarify. Whereas by talking about the systemic properties you are first — recognizing that these *are* systems with inherent characteristics, and second, identifying a specific inherant characteristic that clearly defines the differences between the systems.

In other words, horticulture is *always* sustainable, whether one is using digging sticks, hoes or plows… slash and burn, fallow or permaculture fortification, growing corn or tomatoes or yams…. and, likewise, agriculture is *always* unsustainable.

If you conflate the two terms, especially when discussing specifically sustainable practices, how are you ever to effectively communicate?

(Also, specific to this discussion… agriculture is specifically related to civilization, another system inherently unsustainable… whereas horticulture can be and has been used by all manner of societies short of industrial civilization….)

tp

Some anthros differentiate plow vs pre-plow. Some talk more about intensification.

How is it useful to differentiate via ROI (in energy terms)?

These are the standard, anthropological definitions of the terms…. and far more useful for distinguishing different methods of cultivation than any non-anthropological definitions.

tp

Time for the expert to chime in…. cool dat

I’m not really interested… in the long run, anyway, in tying in to the grid. At the same time I’m also not interested in huge battery systems… so I’m looking at intermittent power regardless. In practice, that may change but right now I’m just thinking about possibilities.

I am in a unique location here… not at the top of the mountains, but rather 7000 feet below the tops in a large mostly flat valley. We get some gustyness but we also get some incredible sustained winds… but like I said in the article, I can literally be bracing against the wind and looking at a turbine that is moving not at all. So it occurs to me that there is something in the shape of this valley that drives the wind at surface level and at cloud level (we can also watch the clouds move, oftentimes) but the middle levels are dead calm. Its weird. So again… I’m imagining possibilities… and wondering what people that *have* turbines already have got to lose by experimenting.

Jeff Vail wrote about a passive solar fridge some years back. Involved a box set into the ground, insulated during the day and open at night. That’s about all I remember of the “tech details” but it is something that I filed away to look into further. That and “Annualized Geo-Solar” which I understand only marginally better….. but looked like an incredibly effective way to go… especially in this climate.

Janene

—-

The wind in CO is likely getting pushed up, over and around the mountains, thus more turbulent and choppy, which does eat turbines, which prefer a more laminar flow (higher off the ground level, the better.)

But there are plenty of wind turbines sited on sides/tops of mountains, so you’re probably missing item 2 or 3. And just to be sure about 1, check a nat’l wind resource map.

There are some small scale urban turbines out there (some like a dna coil or screw rotor design) that can be quiet, self speed limiting (so they don’t over-run) and better handle turbulent/intermittent wind, but they are not well proven/documented. And if the wind is turbulent/intermittent, then the “efficiency” drops in accordance…

——

Can’t think of (m)any passive solar applications for refrigeration. Passive solar cooling (or venting) for buildings: yes, plenty.

—–

A typical domesticated human can generate about 100W, sustained for about an hour. Check the data display on your nearest exercise treadmill/machine for fun. (the best cyclists can run as high as 300W sustained for an hour). Say your very efficient fridge uses 1000W*hrs/day… That’s Olympic peddling for 3 hrs/day, normal human peddling for 10hrs/day.

My PV setup averages about 10,000W*hrs/day… (~15KWhr in summer, 5KWhr in winter)

-Jim

Frezers are more of an issue… folks at Earthaven run big freezers on I think 24 volt power from solar, or the water turbine. Used to be people just hung game up in a cool place and it lasted for some time… they salted the rest of it.

Hey, maybe we could have home made batteries off the pedal power? Gas lights suck. Oil lights are wonderful for ambiance, but not for directed work so much.

Whaddaya mean battery power? Batteries are not power, they’re merely storage. Still needs to come from some where. Now pedal power… alrighty then

My biggest issue with energy is actually related to refrigeration. Sure, I can can and dry, but some things I prefer to freeze… especially if we are looking at hunting. And then there are products that I would like to be able to keep chilled short term. There is some interesting info out there on passive solar cooling, but I haven’t yet figured out exactly how that works or if I could use it.

tp

Neglecting to follow the links… bad girl That’s what the other article is about… and it refers to things like your comments on “endless meetings” Conversation should be conversation, not “planning sessions”. Consensus should be people finding the best available strategy available — not talking until someone gets too worn out to continue. And having a meal together should be a joy, not a chore list on the board. And so on.

tp